I know things are always trying to be better balanced in the game, but I've seen a huge change in a few things for the cleric class.

Recharger: "Hey Gydin, I regen a lot faster than you, why don't you take my mana and we'll regen together and be done at about the same time?"
- Yeah, that doesn't happen anymore. Why? It's a skill we get, basically it's useless now. I can't find anyone to recharger off of. Can't do it to anyone higher than me. Heck, can't to anything to anyone higher than me, can't dispel them or anything from what I've seen. Go arena battles, way to give me a chance against someone higher than me. If a mage is with a cleric, he revitalizes and gets healed by the cleric. Constant power. But, he has to be with a cleric to do so, or regen up that hp. BUT, if a cleric is grouped with someone he can recharger off of then go regen the last bit, he cannot do that. Takes two to revitalize, takes two to recharger normally. What's the deal? I don't wish to have a response to this saying, "It still works, you just have to find out how." Please let me know what's going on and what the mind set was on changing this so drastically. I understand the making a zombie and rechargering off it, I heard that the other day and am sorry I missed out on it, but because of that, tweak that you can't recharger off a zombie, don't take it out completely.

Summon: Can't summon a few mobs that I used to be able to almost every try. Even more simple mobs are harder to summon. It's still helpful on players with consent of course. Mainly this can apply to an agro mob that I use to beat up on Crub and his clerics etc. I used to be able to summon a rather large mob say on Krath, summoned this mob the other day and it didn't agro like it normally does right away. I thought it was still an agro mob and it walked away from the mobs I wanted it to fight. I died trying to get those big mobs to track me and fight it. Turns out, this big mob isn't agro anymore. This large agro mob I use sparringly and where others are not at risk, and when I'm done using it, I kill it so that others won't be harmed. Why was my really big mob who takes 20 tries to usually summon turned not agro?
I left a mob one time when no one was on the game but me to take out a room full of like 20 bronze knights, who usually kill him, but were having a bad day. Levune got on to walk around real quick and walked into that room while I was off checking stuff with plans on coming back to finish off the mob need be. I was all alone, she got agro'd and owned it, but still, could have hurt someone small, so I don't summon in town anymore for anything. I guess this is a two sided comment then. Why does it seem harder to summon and why are some of the agro mobs I summon not able to be summoned anymore? So when I would level every time I hit negs so that the higher I got, the easier it would be to try and summon things... seems none of that matters now because something is different.

Curse and remove curse: I can curse items fine, but I cannot remove curse on the dark heart of Uddoch anymore... why? Since I got curse I could always remove the curse on this item. What changed? If I cannot dispel magic on someone higher, would I not be able to remove curse? It's not an agro spell, doesn't start any fights. Example. I curse my bronze tube so that I don't drop it from my inventory. When I died, Eracules picked up my gear but I couldn't remove curse on him to remove the curse on the tube... I got the tube back thanks to an idea from Bojie but I don't want to have to do that every time. What if I got something else cursed looted, and someone found it and picked it from the corpse?

The big overview of what I'm saying is it seems that clerics are being dumbed down. I can't summon properly when I'm off killing by myself. I can't recharger to get some mana back off anything/anyone with/without consent. Simple spells aren't working like they used to and only so much can be attributed to my currently not having a deity, which I am rping to try and get one to accept me.

The game just looks like it's going more and more towards having a ton of hp and high stops to kill anything in the game. I chose a cleric because it's different and offers different challenges to killing large things. Even Bannik is huge now and has high stops and hp to kill stuff. Very sad when a cleric has to depend on a basher to kill large mobs anymore and can't just use his zombies and time to do things. That's another thing, looks like some rooms have been changed and I can't get zombies in anymore. Could just be me, but I remember not being able to do a few mobs that way, that was a while ago. One of those, "Hrm, I could have sworn I could make a mob in this room, and walk it into this other room to kill something." We'll see if that advantage of being a cleric gets taken away completely now.

Any other classes see any changes that seem to make it a little more unfair to not be a massive hp and armored beast?

Happy to voice my discontent. Gydin

Other than all that, game rocks as usual. Just seems clerics are getting a beat down atm.

I've already gotten some good and bad feedback in game. Thank you all. This is what I want. It sounds like I'm venting... well more or less I am, I just want to get a few thoughts off my chest.

Someone said it's clerics that are overpowered. Lets look at any class close to 199. They're all going to be pretty big, no matter who it is. It then comes down to eq and, I think, who they know. Lets look at Bannik from my point of view. He's the cleric I want to be. He's a loner more or less. He'll group, but does just fine by himself. He can kill most anything he sets his heart on, but he had to work to get there. Eracules, arguably one of the biggest players in the game. But look at how much time he's put into his character and time spent forcing gear. Bojie...
okay, Bojie is big, mirror images and his hp and eq, dang. But, he's at the appropriate level to be that big. Many argue with some of his methods as a player with eq loading things on a reboot that players work hours trying to load but he gets lucky and finds it on a reboot. But, he puts in the time as well to kill things. I see an illusionist as crazy hard to level, but once you get there and get the methods down, it gets easier. This goes for all classes.

There are methods I found as a cleric that seem to be fading out. Again, it just feels like clerics, in my case and my methods, are being dumbed down to make them nothing more than a sancer and a healer, rather than an explorer and a considerable character.

We could comment on ninjas and monks too that seem really hard to level, but once get up there are incredible, but no one is in those classes are really big enough that someone can look at that class and say they're overpowered. I'm sure we all remember Baenothen the monk, he was massive. Mages I think will always be large and with good right, hard to level and learn their methods, but once you get something down, it really works. A mage and a cleric can do incredible things. Heck, any two people of different classes can accomplish alot. From my view, when a class gets big enough to stand alone, people say he's overpowered then it looks like things get changed.

It looks like I'm repeating myself. Please comment on anything related. It's good to just get it out.

Hi once again, in like 1 minute. I got another reply in game. I was talking with someone about stops and eq and hp. Clerics have less melee it seems. Meaning in the same eq with say a warrior, I'll take more damage. Eracules stated that was true, but he cannot flee and full heal himself 5 times. That's a really good comment, but it's part of being a cleric isn't it? He left before I could reply to that. Once I got laying of hands, healing is a breeze and with good right. It was about level 153 when I got that spell. Before that we still have full heal, great for people who have insane hp and then we have heal, which cost a good deal of mana, but does a lot of healing.

If anyone is close to being a greater lord, they're going to be pretty big based on what eq they have. I was commenting mainly on recharger, which I just tested and Nusa can recharger off me, but I cannot off him. Too bad there is no one within my level range I can recharger off of, that may simply be the issue. I was also commenting on my methods of assisting mobs I summon to kill other mobs when I'm working alone.

More imput, feed me!

OK,
Just a few of my thoughts on this matter.

Dispel Magic: This seems perfect to me and I can't really see any reason it should be changed. It makes complete sense for it to be level based. Take for example a D&D (yeah, showing my age here scenario - you wouldn't expect an apprentice lvl 5 mage to be able to unwork spells of protection that someone like Elminster has cast. Even if a lower level person has knowledge of the spell and how to unwork it, they just wouldn't have the power to unwork the magic cast by a more experienced person.

Summoning: I haven't noticed any problems with summoning things. Some things may have been tweaked to keep the game balanced I suppose, but I'm sure if they were there was probably a good reason for it. Its also a bit of a random thing in terms of your success and also in terms of mobs agro'ing each other so it could potentially be an anomaly?

Recharger: Not 100% sure on this, but in my opinion it should work the same as dispel magic - you wouldn't really expect to be able to draw on power from someone with a greater type of magic. I can also see how you couldn't expect to be able to run around draining mobs to get full mana in a matter of minutes. Its an ability limited in its use - agreed, but if you consider the above you see how it might unbalance things?

General Class Balance: I think its actually pretty good. I'll put aside any bias here and say that I don't think clerics are overpowered (nor any other class). Classes have different abilities and if used properly all are great. Each class too has its drawbacks and these generally need to be worked around by using smarts and/or grouping with people with different skills.

Equipment can be important but its just a tool. Give a Level 150 character a full set of dream equipment and pit him against the Great Reptilian Punisher and you'll see how little equipment matters compared with experience and levels. A Greater Avatar with far more mediocre equipment would fare much better.

Anyways, I'll stop my ramblings for now. Any further comments on this would be very useful I think.

Peace,

Bannik.

Ever think not having a deity would have any substantial effect on a cleric? I mean, clerics are the one class that are hugely dependent upon their faith in their gods...

And the beauty of a game such as this is that life (the game) is ever changing, ever evolving. You can not count on things remaining exactly the same always. If you want that, then why not go play a box game that is boring and predictable? Here you get challenged to hone your skills and see if you can out think and outwit the situations that come your way. That's the fun of it.

See, thoughts, replies. I love the forums.

I totally understand all Bannik and Myrrima said. Makes sense. Only thing about dispel magic, is dispel curse. Not an agressive spell, might be able to do that on someone higher if they wish to have a curse removed, maybe with consent?

A Diety has a HUGE affect on a cleric as I have noticed. Makes total sense too.

The agro mob I used to summon to fight with was a little big I'll agree, it's probably good to get ride of that to balance things out a lil bit. I'll admit, it was a little crazy. I just wanted to hear a reply upon it.

On one class being overpowered or not... Like Bannik said, it all depends on how you play your class. I don't really think anyone out there is a demi-god, they can all be killed. Some players are better at their classes than others. I by no means am great at a cleric, look at my con. LOL. I think I do pretty well though.

I, for one, disagree. Keep in mind that my reply to this thread is personal in nature, and in no way does it necessarily express the opinion of the rest of the staff members.

I, more than a little, wish that the casting classes were more dependent upon the melee classes. Because, as it were, all the casting classes really need from the melee classes are repairs... And not so much even that anymore.

Once upon a time, it was the mighty Paladin, and sometimes the Warrior, that was the supreme class of the game. Upon reaching later levels they were able to cast spells such as Sanctuary and Full Heal.

With the new code that we have now, you are no longer able to acquire an ability or spell of another class that you branch to, if that ability or spell is acquired later than level fifty of the original class.

While this effectively balanced the melee classes, so that they need to rely more upon the casting classes, it also made them somewhat obsolete.

And why is that, you might ask? Why, I'll tell you! Casting classes still get the majority (if not all in some cases, I'm too lazy to check at the moment) of the skills, spells, and abilities of the classes they branch to.

So, in the end, we have this.

Warriors no longer get any truely beneficial spells from the paladin or cleric subclasses.

Paladins no longer get the beneficial spells like Sanctuary or Full heal.

Rangers no longer get helpful spells like the higher Monsums (Anything over monsum three, which from personal experience, is almost worthless if you've above level 50), Stoneskin, Summon Elemental.

Bards lack in effective ways for combat, since they no longer get the higher backstabs or assassinates. (Charm song isn't really all that beneficial if you can't move them through zones)

Monks... Well, let's face it. The gear requirement for a monk to be even somewhat effective is more trouble than it's worth, most of the time. (I truely believe that monks should get more skills that help with their offense/defense)

But, ah! Spellcasters, now. They get some groovy stuff. They get melee classes weapon proficiencies. They get melee classes repair skills. And, they'll probably get skills like kick, bash, and whatever else.

Anyways, Gydin, I think you and your fellow spell casters got the better end of the stick.

Warmest regards,
Jorlain

Hey man, np, I'm happy to take the better end of the stick. Maybe once over level 200 classes will get diff ranges of skills as you mentioned you're not getting now. But who knows, no one is over 200.
I'd say that with the massive amount of exp required to level casting classes, I'm happy I'm getting so nice additions. I cannot wait for level 172 when I'll get armory and add that to my metallurgy one and two to help make a warrior a little more useless to me. Too bad I'll never gem carve or sew, I think. I wonder when I get bash since that's so early on in most melee classes.

Not trying to say who is the better class here, it's all in how you group and play. I'm thankful for my 134 days put into this cleric alone, not to mention the last one I Permi'd at level 122. Once level 180 something, most classes are very strong. All eracules needs is a sanc and he's taco bell. Oh, point proven, he still needs a sanc, has to rely on another class. Man, I'm loving the cleric class more and more, glad I chose it. Myrrima is right about no deity thing, does more and more I'm noticing, little things here and there.

I'm not sure I understand this thread since most of this stuff hasn't changed for at least 3.5 years...

That said, yes, classes still need lots of work and balancing, I realize that.

Best regards,

--Nezmar

It takes time and experience with a class to learn them and the gameplay. No one said druids were good until someone leveled them up and found that bonuses vs weaknesses isn't always apparent.

Yup, there are def some changes in my opinion hitting against the cleric class. My biggest problems are with the summon spell. But no worries about that, just wanted to mention I've noticed a few things and it discourages me. I've also noticed someone keeps hiding all the flying mounts during the reboots and they cannot be summoned, seeing how mostly us clerics use them to fly over to rocksport. Again, discouraging. Why push classes towards being dependant on other people? I don't want to play a game where I have to have other people around me all the time to do anything. I don't think any classes are overpowered or over armored, or have to much magic. Me, I can/could max out at 1701 mana, but, I don't have crap for stops with that. I also burn through that mana in 10 minutes like it's nothing. I'm sure most people notice it's regen that matters more, not max mana. Hps are of course more important than most anything else, can't live to get hit if you don't have the hp. I'd much rather have 100 hp than 100 mana. Some say you can use that mana to heal, but again, can't flee if you don't have the hp to get hit with in the first place.

I just wanted to state again that I think classes are fairly balanced. Anyone with enough levels is going to be large. I've heard rumor of all sorts of eq being changed and having diff attributes than they do now. I'm worried that eq for casting classes is going to change too drastically, making those classes more dependant on others.

Things in the game, NPCs, spells, skills, items, eq, gold, rooms - "life" will never remain unchanged. The places and things have to evolve to keep things balanced and challenging.

And clerics are not being 'dummied down', things get balanced and changed as necessary for reasons that aren't always logical to you. I've said this before, and I stand by it - Trust Nezmar to do what is right for the whole game, he sees the big picture. Take the changes as a challenge to grow and adapt and be a better, more skilled and rounded player.

And if you think just one class is getting weakened too much, go play another one for a while and I bet you'll see how things are changing for all.

gydin i had to reply. Dude Clerics are one of the strongest classes and bigger clerics normally dont need to group. Try being something like a Stone giant that can never mount a flying mount. At least you can go in the sky and you can sanc and heal yourselve and later proberbly bash and wield a two hand sword, No other class will ever get your good skills like sanc and full heal. So please look at other classes before you say stuff like that.